Today I was struggling with Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and the concept of “Inheritance” and it was having a troubling effect on my spirit. I started to become haunted by the concept of “many are called but few are chosen”. Funny how what pulled me out of that fog was a teaching from a Greek Orthodox Christian who rightfully explained that Jesus was talking to the Jews. Sometimes you really have to be careful about certain scripture and understanding who is talking to whom about what. Otherwise you can get confused pretty fast.
The MORAL OF THE STORY – Is that “all Christian beliefs” bring something of value to the table. I rule out very little at this point. Jesus is the key to everything and relationship is the key to Jesus. Make sure he knows you when you come knocking and everything will be okay.
The Importance of Fellowship and Encouragement
It is critical that readers and email “List” members of Tribulation Now know that we are a fellowship of believers in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. We embrace NO DOCTRINE. We divorce ourselves from discord and contention as a group. We, like the Bereans referred to in Acts 17:11, are NOBEL and we refuse to take the word of others as “gospel truths”. Hopefully we gracefully and peacefully present our concerns (through the email List) and may God ensure I have the ability to get everyone’s ideas voiced to the group ensuring edification and love become the “foundstone” of this mission.
Let Us Voice Our Concerns
If you are an email “List” member of Tribulation Now, and you have concerns to raise, PLEASE DO. I will either answer them directly and if that is not satisfactory then I will forward them to the group. I really pray with all my heart this forum has more meaning than just a personal diary of my thoughts “out loud”. Let’s make this Internet thing WORK for us and bring us closer to the Lord. We are TOO CLOSE to the END to let “anything” to chance. We need to hear each other’s ideas.
At the age of 10 years old I sat with a Jack Van Impe record album and listened to his interpretation of prophecies. Even then he was “all over” the Magog invasion. And here we are today right on the precipice of it occurring. NOW, praise Jesus, even Jack Van Impe himself has discovered the New World Order, and knows we are imminently in for a world of crap. Sadly however, in my hopefully humble opinion, even Jack himself is probably in for a big surprise. When REALLY bad stuff starts to happening to the “church” and he has not been pre–raptured, many will be disillusioned and many leaders will be lost for words. I love Jack, he is a sort of hero to me, but I really do not believe that “pre–trib” rapture is going to happen. There is far too much “tangible evidence” that we are already entering into the early stages of the Beginning of Sorrows with the Temple and the “Abomination” biting at our ankles. God Bless you Jack!!!
What is Consistent is Inconsistency
What has become PAINFULLY obvious to me is that 100% of all my favorite teachers have things they believed that just are not making sense to me. If it doesn’t make sense to me, and after much scriptural research it remains an enigma, I simply must discard it – especially if I discover the entire worldwide Christian community is at ODDS with each other over the issue. WHY? Because it simply does not “make sense”. I think God has a LOT of SENSE. I think there is much hidden meaning in the scripture that we defend with doctrine and other beliefs of our Christian forefathers.
The Wisdom of Marvin Rosenthal
If I have learned anything, it is that no human is perfect. And no human Christian scholar is either. Not a single one of them. Not even a big group of them that all are saying exactly the same thing. All their beliefs are backed with amazing knowledge of history and scriptural evidence of prophetic “types and shadows” BUT THEY ALL STILL DISAGREE. That entirely blows my mind and humbles me. Every one of these groups are laden with Ph.D.s in various disciplines, but they do not agree.
Even Marvin Rosenthal has what “I” consider to be pre-established beliefs that I am not comfortable with. But I “tip my hat to that man” and give him the recognition he most divinely deserves because he had the courage to throw away his entire career, his entire following, his entire history with the church, and “literally everything”, to stand up for an inconsistency in “pre–trib” doctrine that simply did not “make sense” to him.
AND GUESS WHAT?
Enter a Regular Guy
It was a person, just like me – a “regular guy” – that bent his ear. Nobody with a degree. Nobody with any “theological credentials”. Just a regular person (like you) that said “Marvin – this “pre–trib” thing just doesn’t make sense”. So he stepped up, and “manned up” and did what was right on behalf of God and man, and forfeited his reputation and career and wrote a book entitled “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church”.
The first several chapters describe the “hell” he went through trying to decide if he should even write the book at all. He was challenged knowing that by doing so, he would ultimately discredit hundreds of his fellow “brethren”.
GOD BLESS Marvin Rosenthal. Think of all the lives and souls this man may ultimately save by preventing them from being “sucked into” the deception that is coming very soon. Think of how he may have unwittingly foiled the plans of Satan’s army by standing up against the army of “pre–trib” defenders. How amazing it is to ponder, that he alone may have had the fortitude to save the LIVES of millions of deceived Christians by coming forth with a lie from the ENEMY that has secretly infiltrated the ranks of the “ELECT”.
The Pre-Wrath Position
Basically Rosenthal’s “pre-wrath” position correctly points out that “pre–trib” is flawed because there is nothing scriptural about a “tribulation period“. The only thing mentioned in the Bible is the “Great Tribulation”. Daniels 70th week, (3.5 + 3.5) is based upon only ONE trigger point scripturally and that is “the abomination of desolation” which is ALWAYS directly linked in subsequent verses to “fleeing” the scene (minus the verse in Revelation). This only occurs 5 times in the entire Bible. 2 times in Matthew (Mat. 24:21, 29), (linked to fleeing), 2 times in Mark (Mark 13:19 and Mark 13:14-18) (linked to fleeing), and one time in Revelation (Rev. 7:13-14), (no reference to “fleeing” here but use of the word “Great” as an adjective). All other references to the word “tribulation” mean general challenges or affliction but unfortunately use the same Greek word “thlipsis“. Without the word “GREAT” preceding “thlipsis” and the subsequent reference to the abomination + fleeing, the word does not refer to anything but “affliction or hard-times” in general.
This means that when you consider the three verses used to defend “pre trib” which are:
- 1 Thes. 5:9 says: “you are not appointed to wrath”
- Romans 5:9 says “you are saved from wrath through him”
- 1 Thes. 5:4 says “they are not in darkness, that that day should overtake them as a “thief”
Pre–Trib is hugely popularized in the US because we have had it so good and we don’t want to have to go through anything bad (like the Christians in Muslim lands, Asian lands and other countries do every day). We are “COMFORTABLE”. That comfort is about to meet “head on” with some harsh realities.
The only thing we know for sure is that WE KNOW Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior! I personally know the Holy Spirit is real; I’ve personally experienced his power. I know the enemy has us completely surrounded and I am certain that God’s Wrath is forthcoming and the mack-daddy Antichrist is coming to haunt us really soon. But when it comes to deciphering Trib / Trumpets / Seals and Bowls, I have found so much disconnect & discord that it all does not make sense in my world at this time.
Right now I struggle with so many challenges associated with things like 1) “are Trumpets definitely part of “God’s Wrath” and 2) Is the scroll that Jesus breaks the Seals on in Revelation only to describe God’s Wrath within it or 3) could that scroll also include the Trumpets which are instead “warnings” or “signs”.
Hello John. I follow you every day and praise God that you are out there. But please help me understand how your process works for communicating my thoughts with the "list" group. What is the process to interact with them and share my thoughts? Please explain what I'm suppossed to do.
I have read Marvin Rosenthals book about the pre-wrath rapture and agree with him 100%. It is the only things that makes sense to me. My friends disagree with him saying that all tribulation is wrath, so that when anything troubling begins the rapture will happen and they will be out of here! That's just not the way I see it. I was grateful to see what your understanding of pre-wrath was. I helps my faith a lot.
Thank you so much for your kind words. When people like you email me it means the world to me. Its all about encouragement.
The email list used to be automated but the unfortunate side effect was that it disclosed people's email addresses. So with your permission, I am happy to forward your email to "the list" with your address disclosed and people can answer voluntarily and directly to you. The other option is I can moderate for you and send your email to them and ask them to respond back to me. Then I will forward their comment to you. Either direct or with me in the middle to act as a buffer.
I am trying to be really careful about forwarding people's emails without their request since some folks are sensitive.
Also be careful out there. Sometimes people have unusual feelings about stuff (as you already know) and they feel very strongly about those feelings. I have had a couple folks be "down right" mean to me regarding their beliefs.
There are even a couple of really wonderful people on the list that are super nice but have some "way out" thoughts on some things. The problem with many people's beliefs is that they come from two different camps (this is way over simplifying it but hopefully makes the point).
One camp comes from the "prophecy is allegory" camp, and the other one suggests that "prophecy is literal" camp. That is why you will find youtube videos that claim things like the War in Iraq was fulfilling pophecy because the oil fires turned the sky black and "darkened the heavens" etc. When prophecy is seen as "allegory" it can get really tricky. Personally I am somewhere in between but leaning toward the "literal camp" since I think God intends to make a "far greater" impression on the world then just something only the soldiers in Iraq can see.
That's why I stand on one foundation – JESUS and your relationship with him. Everything else is being ready, watching and praying. Always look at your friends notions in love (I'm sure you do) and remember YOU will be the one they come too when things start getting dark and they start to realize they should have been "raptured" and weren't. That's why I think the "left behind" series did no one any good.
I'm quite sure you're aware of this – and MORE – but wanted to make sure you had this.
Blessings, dear brother!
P.S. I've printed off today's teaching and am ready to go to bed and do my reading. So ANXIOUS to hear your take on Calvinism v Arminianism and also Marv R. Thanks once again! Interesting, isn't it, how Yahweh puts a question (or MORE!) in our head and then brings someone along with our answer(s)! Baruch HaShem!!!!!
I never really drew any conclusions on the Calvinism vs. Arminianism thoughts. The other camp is a middle ground between the two called the "Inheritance" camp. This camps suggests that Calvinism was right in that you are indeed predestined (since that concept is scriptural), and embraces the Arminianism "behavior counts" concept. The Inheritance camp combines these two concepts with the Jewishness of the Old Testament teachings of Inheriting the Kingdom as a reward for "good behavior".
I have a $70 / 16 hour teaching on Inheritance that I really want to get to some day soon. My wife wants to take it with me and that slows me down since she sleeps in and has other interests that get in the way ; ) If I could, I would have her get up at 4 AM every morning and knock it out so we can move on and "start earning" our inheritance instead of just learning about it ; )
Thank you for your email.
I value our friendship
In Jesus!
I noticed something recently.
I reread the bowls/vials of wrath verses in Revelation. Something
very interesting jumped out at me. The angels came out of the temple
already possessing the plagues. They were given vials of the Lord's
wrath after they came out of the temple.
In these verses the plague is separate from the wrath. Once again,
plague comes with the angel, wrath is in the bowl which is handed to
the angel. Wrath comes from the Lord. Plague comes from the angel.
Remember when I said that the bowls/vials are different from the
seals and trumpets because they actually transport stuff rather than
being mere message transmission devices like the seals and trumpets?
Well, in these verses we have more difference. And I don't think it
can get any plainer. We are told we are to be saved from wrath. The
wrath is explicitly in those bowls and it is only wrath in those
bowls. The plague comes with the angel, that's what they do, inflict
plagues.
Those angels have been given specific powers, specific authority to
inflict plagues. But to explicitly give them a bowl full of the
Lord's wrath means the bowls are to serve a specific purpose separate
from the plague. In pouring out each bowl, each plague let loose by
each angel is definitively identified as coming from the Lord. There
is something about those bowls that lets everyone know Who is
responsible. At least that's how I see it.
One other thing about the bowls, with the fourth, fifth and sixth
bowls we see where those left on earth blaspheme the Lord and refuse
to repent. For those verses to include that information implies to me
that there is an invitation being given with each bowl. You don't
refuse something unless it is offered. It seems even at that late
date forgiveness is being offered. What an amazing Lord we serve.
I know I am being somewhat redundant in how I wrote this but I want to
be extremely clear.
GOD BLESS YOU !!!!
I am going to forward this to the list and post it on the web site.
I will keep you anonymous but this is FABULOUS!!
PRAISE JESUS FOR YOU BROTHER!!!
John: When I read my bible, and it is not a King James version, Revelation 6:5 reads: When he had broken the third seal, I heard the third Living Being say, "Come!" And I saw a black horse, with its rider holding a pair of balances in his hand. 6) And a voice from among the four Living Beings said, " A loaf of bread for $20, or three pounds of barley flour, but there is no olive oil or wine.
What does this mean?? Food is very very expensive and in very short supply. My understanding is that the King James version reads differently. From my interpretation, this is clearly foretelling of a shortage of food and wine and oil. A loaf of bread for $20 is an incredibly expensive price to pay. From my perspective, when Jesus breaks the third seal it somehow corresponds to chapter 8 when 1/3 of the fishes are killed (the second trumpet) and to the first trumpet where 1/3 of the land is burned and set on fire. Everything leads to famine which in today's modern society we have absolutely no knowledge. The last great famines in civilized society were during the Bolshevik(read Talmudic Jew) starvation of the Ukrainian Christians and then again in the Depression in the US where more that 10 million people perished in a great famine.
So, I think you are onto something. The trumpets in chapter 8 which are happening first could well be heralding what happens in chapters 6 and 7. All of which mean that the Christians are in for a world of hurt. Especially if chapter 9 is the Icelandic volcano that is raging out of control.
REV Chapter 9
Then the Fifth angel blew his trumpet and I saw one who was fallen to earth from heaven, and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit. When he opened it, smoke poured out as though from some huge furnace, and the sun and air were darkened by the smoke. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Which means: the locusts came from the smoke and descended onto the earth and were given the power to sting like scorpions. They were told to attack the people who did not have the mark of God on their foreheads and to leave the GRASS AND PLANTS AND TRESS ALONE.
Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet "Release the the four mighty daemons held bound at the great river Euphrates. They were turned loose to kill a third of all mankind. (Is this Israel and the United States attacking Iran?? If we were to do this, all Hell would break loose. Our carrier groups in the Persian Gulf would be destroyed. Iran would come across the border and wipe out our soldiers who are garrisoned throughout Iraq in small forts that can easily be surrounded and destroyed.
This stuff gets very tricky. You are experiencing the same challenge that all Christians do when trying to interpret prophecy. It is the "allegory" vs. "literal" challenge. If you interpret prophecy using the "allegory" method than you can "snap" almost any event into the prophecy. This is why I was (and remain) very careful about the Deepwater Horizon event and use words like "interesting" and "worth considering" and always leave people with the requirement to "watch & pray".
Where people like us have an advantage is that we are not ignorant to 9-11. We are not ignorant about 2012. We KNOW Satan's army has us surrounded and we KNOW they are bringing in their god Apollyon. This means "all bets are off" and we REALLY need to buckle down and pray hard. We MUST get our "Holy Spirit" forces stirred up and ensure the Angels in Heaven are watching our backs.
In all fairness, I must point out that many times throughout history various highly visible groups of people were *absolutely* positive the Antichrist had risen (think dark ages, think popes murdering slaughtering Christians) and they went nuts about it. Even the church in Thessolanika needed some "talking too" by Paul regarding their thinking the time had come.
The main difference today is that "knowledge" has increased. We SEE with our own eyes that many of the preceding prophecies are unfolding. We know what the enemy is up too. THIS IS DEFINITELY IT.
The only question left is this. Allegory vs. Literal and the "order of events".
To me, I watch & pray. To me, its about Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I am GOING to make sure I have oil in my lamp and make it when the Trumpet blows!!! I'm going to make it. And so are you. The secret is to forsake everything worldly and REALLY MAKE SURE that Jesus knows who you are!!
The vials and the trumpets are the same and the angels and the seals are the same. They are two different views. One is heavenly view the other is earthly view..from heaven..or from earth..the way you would see it if you were in heaven..the way you would see it if you were on the earth.
Steve to me
Sent May 29, 2010
Hello John,
I want to thank you and the Tribulation Now members, Praise be to God,
The internet is an amazing tool where all believers can be forewarned.
Being in Japan I can keep in close contact to the body of Christ through the internet and I have to say this is a potential Trumpet moment,
This Gulf Oil leak can turn into something unthinkable but here it goes,
As we know there is more then just oil gushing out but also benzene and natural gas all poisonous to anyone living in that area also if the air is saturated enough it has the potential to ignite and would kill everyone and cause such damage unthinkable, also if that happens the oil could ignite and thus causing the blotting out of the sun,
Earthquakes are now starting to become more common and volcanoes are erupting another source that could cause the blotting out of the sun.
Wars, Living in Japan I am hearing North and South Korea are on alert any wrong move and there could be a war here,
Iran and the Islam nations going against Israel,
Not to mention transhumanism and the return of the fallen ones and there army of demons in the flesh.
Matt 24 "…And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved"
We are in existing times to see and witness what God has spoken in his word now is the time to witness to others.
Everyone start and prepare for what is to come, store food and supplies we are in for a long haul for I am a believer that we are going through it and at the last trump we will finally see our savior and lord Jesus Christ.
If there is a pre trib rapture then praise GOD but I am not holding my breath) we are going to be tested there is no question about that choose this day who you will serve.
I have also heard about visions that other believers have had about Tsunamis and a Mega earthquake that could effect people all across the west coast of America and Canada.
Other interesting reads and videos.
http://2ww4.blogspot.com/